Menu
What's new

Start of map player shuffle

the problem is that auto-balance will wait a few rounds until the teams are stacked w/ a 2-3 players difference, and will still allow people to choose teams based on ease of play / stacking

another problem is that auto-choose will always put you on CT unless the teams are imbalanced by 2-3 players
 
Last edited:
The auto balancer doesn't do shit because it's wildly inconsistent in how it operates. I've spent countless maps waiting for the balancer to do its job, only to end up watching a grand total of one person get swapped in an entire 10-1 map duration. (More often than not that one person is me) Other times people (like myself) are being switched two-three times in a single half.
I really don't think any of you have brought a viable argument against shuffle to the table. It alleviates all stacking because it gives everyone the same 50% chance to play both teams at round commencement. No one gains an unfair advantage in this manner, no matter which team they chose originally. With the halftime feature enabled you're going to have to play both sides regardless, so what difference does it make if you have to play T side first? None whatsoever. It's completely arbitrary, and because of halftime any preference one way or the other is irrelevant.
Also, saying that it causes team imbalance is a complete non-sequitur based on the merits of probability. For every time a 10-0 score results from shuffle, statistics dictate that another 5-5 will cancel it out. (And like I previously stated, good players make their own luck)

Because of the halftime feature, waiting until 3-4 rounds have elapsed just ends up screwing people who wanted to play both teams. Hypothetically, if I shuffle the teams 4 rounds in after a 4-0 CT start, a bunch of people playing T side are going to get swapped to CT for a grand total of one round before halftime throws them right back onto T.
I don't personally care all that much which side I'm on (though I'll admit that I appreciate a change of play style/scenery, and I'd prefer to play both for an equal time allotment) but I can tell you that most people DO in fact care which team they're playing. Again, a pre-map shuffle takes every player and applies the same odds to each individual. It's the fairest possible way to remove a stupid problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.
(And like I mentioned before, if I don't feel there's a logjam of stackers, I'm much less likely to engage the shuffle function)

Admins can swap players, and help losing teams with the occasional money boost. The shuffle levels the playing field for everyone. No one gains an unfair advantage, and no one loses out in the long run either. For every single person - other than those few who want to play with friends - the shuffle is 100% entirely arbitrary, because of halftime. If you have a new argument I'm more than happy to dissect it, but nothing that's been brought to the table so far has convinced me in the slightest. I appreciate the comments of source admins/players, but the GO server operates in an entirely different way than the source server does, so many of your theories aren't even particularly relevant.

I'd say this debate is just about settled.
 
You make good points, Murk, and you've certainly addressed the reasoning for the way you prefer to admin, but I'm not sure you, or we, have fully discussed, nor addressed, Delete's concerns.

And, with respect, my, and other clan opinions, are relavent, regardless of where we play as this is, imho, a philosophical debate, not just practical, and I believe this matter to be, as yet, unsettled.

(oh, and, I'm a big fan of commas lol)
 
Last edited:
built[4]sin said:
You make good points, Murk, and you've certainly addressed the reasoning for the way you prefer to admin, but I'm not sure you, or we, have fully discussed nor addressed Delete's concerns.

And, with respect, my, and other clan opinions, do matter, regardless of where we play and I believe this matter to be, as yet, unsettled.
Click to expand...

I mean what this boils down to is simple: Either we let people do whatever they want, and in the process make the server an unarguably worse place to play in; or the vast minority of people who come to play with friends have to deal with a 50% chance they'll be split up. (And why is playing against friends the worst thing in the world anyways?)
The conclusion doesn't seem ambiguous to me.

And just to elaborate, I'm not arguing that your opinions don't matter, or are invalid based on you the individual. (Like I said, I appreciate all constructive conversation) I'm simply stating that the last time I played on the source server it was a 24/7 d2 max money server, with no awp. (Which is an entirely different scenario than what we deal with on the GO server)
I don't mean to come off as condescending, but I have yet to read a viable opposing argument.

Most of the admins (Myself, Josh, Fasttrak, Globe, Stig) seem to have very similar approaches, so I'd be curious to see if they have any arguments to bring to the table. (Stig and Fast have both already made their opinions known)
 
So just to throw my own hat into the debate I have to say I dont feel like a team shuffle at the start should be a problem. here are a few of my opinions.

1. As someone who ALWAYS auto selects team I dont particularly like anyone who chooses a certain team for any reason. Its a pub server, alot of people suck and arent team players and as some one who is terrible at the game i dont really understand people caring about their score. Saying you have to play on one side (T on agency) for a few rounds because you want to have a higher score is exactly the problem we are talking about isnt it? The problem of people jumping for the easy side is the problem that we are trying to solve right?

2. Even though I never use the auto shuffle (just because i dont want to deal with complaints) I completely understand its use even at the beginnings of a map. It gives everything a blank slate and any possible problems that arise from peoples self serving choices are erased including giving everyone an equal chance to start as whatever team they want, even though it doesnt really make a difference with half time. Personally I never use it but I dont have any problem with it.
A. An argument that it doesnt matter if people choose their favorite team because of halftime can be dispelled by the simple fact that everyone one else is looking to flock to that side to and that creates stacked team, it might not create stacked teams alot or even half the time but the goal should be zero stacked teams not mostly not stacked teams.
B. Any complaints about are either from people trying to choose the easy team and those people seem to be the problem anyway. or from people who want to play with their friends, this brings me to bullet 3

3. If you want to play with your friends on CSGO you have more then one option. The Matchmaking is awesome and I wouldnt feel its any sort of disloyalty to play some where other than 47R. Other servers offer different experiences. Ours tires to provide even experiences for everybody, fast play that discourages campers, and timed servers that provide predictable expectations on match length. I get complaints about auto switching changing people from their friends teams alot especially when a clan will come into to try out our server. I simply tell them that this is how our server runs and it works for some people and they usually just keep playing the game. Im not trying to say that if you dont like it get out im just saying that the very understandable desire to play with your friends is solved by the built in matchmaking system and i use it liberally once the server is populated.

In conclusion, i dont use shuffle teams but I have zero complaints about it and, this may be grating to some, but I feel anyone who is hurt by the shuffle is part of the problem simply because shuffle doesnt hurt people who auto select and people who choose a certain team only exacerbate the problem. A team shuffle is a ability i have never felt the need to use before but i dont see any reason at all not to.
 
I don't really have a problem with shuffling, but I won't. As most people most likely know, I'm probably the most lax admin in terms of disciplinary action. That's just due to me being that type of person, I suppose. But...

I don't have a problem playing vs friends, I really enjoyed it in other games. But I do have other friends who don't like to play against (or they prefer to play with) those that they know. I understand that position. So I think since people play for different reasons, one would be hard pressed to find a "viable opposing argument." That certainly wasn't the point if Delete's first post. He was just asking for us to make the game more enjoyable for him :) That really is the point in the end. I mean, if we REALLY wanted to be fair we could remove no-block because then teams could coordinate, boost on things, etc. But virtually no one wants that. it's just not fun.

I'm not sure that shuffling really has much of an effect. At least I haven't seen it. Sure, there are certain players that will always join a particular team, but I really do find half-time sufficient for that purpose. Now when people switch in game, it's annoying, but a starting stack of mediocre players doesn't seem so bad. Most of the good players seem to pick random enough, they are confident enough that they don't need to be on winning team. As Delete admitted, he can often have varying scores (hell, my own fluctuate wildly), so I don't think him and his similar/less skilled friend are doing any particular disservice to the server. Some people really play for the social aspect.

I suppose most of my opinion could merely be born from my inattentiveness to who picks what and when, but I think that the combination of money, auto balance, and half time are enough.

It appears that this practice will continue, but it won't be happening when I'm the only one running things.
 
Last edited:
The Sad Zealot said:
I don't really have a problem with shuffling, but I won't. As most people most likely know, I'm probably the most lax admin in terms of disciplinary action. That's just due to me being that type of person, I suppose. But...

It appears that this practice will continue, but it won't be happening when I'm the only one running things.
Click to expand...

I also dont use it and i agree that it probably doesnt have much effect but I see it as having no ill effect other then rubbing a few people the wrong way. Thats enough for me to not use it simply because Im desperate for outside validation but other then that I dont think there is a downside. Honestly Murk is the most active of all of us and does the most with his admin powers and thats in no way bad. Its just his style and until i see something that I have a problem with I wont suggest he change it.
 
"Any complaints are either from people trying to choose the easy team and those people seem to be the problem anyway" is basically what I wanted to say, but I skirted around that wording so as not to offend anybody.
It's literally arbitrary in every sense of the word if we're not strictly describing the scenario of wanting to play on the same team as friends.

And the argument that shuffle is a placebo is also inaccurate if you know the tendencies of certain players. Like I said before, I don't want to name names because I'm not interested in this deteriorating into a drama thread. Suffice to say these individuals - all of which are regulars, and some of which are fairly decent players - pick CT at the start of literally every bomb map, and T at the start of every hostage map. (More than one is a 47 Ronin member too) The information is also easy enough to dig up if you look at the stats.
Shuffle eliminates this problem by forcing them to essentially 'random teams.' No one is claiming it balances the teams, but it certainly does more than when it isn't implemented. (Especially on maps which are heavily favored for one side or the other)

I've given this example already, but I feel I need to reiterate the point because it flew over everyone's head.When you get kills, you can play the odds that the auto balance is going to move you at some point in the first half. What this means is that someone can pick CT on dust2, and if they're top fragging during the first half and their team is winning, there's a very high chance they'll end up on T before halftime. When auto balance isn't feeling particularly aggressive, this gives these players almost an entire map on CT side. Shuffle combats this problem completely by applying a 50% chance that in conjunction with auto balance, this trend will occur with the person playing a majority on T side.

Fairness is the nature of the game here, and shuffle provides fairness in droves.
 
I did take your statement that way, I saw what you were saying...

I agree it's the most fair. It's also not a bad idea. I don't disagree with what you saying (besides the usefulness of the shuffle, which I admitted could just be my problem).

I guess the easiest way for me to put it is that I simply don't care about stacking at the start, and if I play the "bad side" a little more it's fine by me (well except when the half ends and auto-balancer moves me at that same time... screw that - _ - ). People have their own reasons for playing, and I'm happy so long as everyone else is. Its takes a grade-A jerk to really rustle me. I do notice certain players stacking (though no 47R springs to mind immediately) but I don't find it to be a problem, cause I can only name like 3 of them.

It's funny, everyone who knows me criticizes me for being "obsessed with fairness," but in some cases I just don't care.

I think that people did understand what you were saying (it seems like they did to me) but I think that some people just don't view the game the same way.
 
I won't do it, kinda like stable I sit back most of the time.. I would rather let people play their teams and throw money around and maybe warn and then swap a top player...

I roll my eyes when I get shuffled... It use to seriously piss me off but now I can just look forward to being on the opposite team as Merc so I can kill him... Hunt him down and fill his head with something better than kittens...

I'm good enough I don't need to piggyback off better players to have a good score.

I understand your concerns and they are valid.

I hope the powers at be and their deliberations reach an agreeable solution. Without you we would not be here.

Sent from my Nexus 5
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top